fifty frenchmen can't be wrong (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
some_stars) wrote2012-05-12 06:38 pm
some_stars) wrote2012-05-12 06:38 pm
(no subject)
From the most wonderful recap:
Fury seals Loki into the cell, showing him the button that will drop him 30,000 feet to the earth if he stares any more penises at anybody. It didn’t even occur to me that he’d be dropping the cell out of the vehicle completely. I just thought there was some kind of howling void spawned from the unholy union of science and dark sorcery inside the Helicarrier, because seriously: I LOVE THE HELICARRIER.
This also did not occur to me the first time! Except my problem was that I sort of...forgot they were flying? And I was like, "Did...did SHIELD drill a hole straight through the planet specifically for disposing of extra-dangerous threats? What am I asking, of course they did." I am not very smart while watching movies.
also, and unrelated except that I'm trying to reduce the spam--one of the moments that struck me this time was when Steve and Tony are talking about Coulson, and Tony's all "he was stupid!" and ends up yelling We are not soldiers!--and then there's a pause, and his voice and his whole bearing shift, and he says something about not marching to Fury's fife or whatever. And Steve is all, no, me neither, I don't trust him but we have to work together etc etc I forget. But the thing is--RDJ's delivery on that line, and the pause, and the different tone on the rest of the line makes me think that the first part, the "we are not soldiers" part that he yells, that's raw like barely any of his other lines, is not actually about not wanting to fall in line and follow marching orders of some guy he can't trust. It felt a lot more like a direct response to Steve's "is this the first time you've lost a soldier?"
Like what sets Tony off, the intense no reaction, isn't the idea of following someone else and subordinating his decisions to someone else--and the thing is, I've seen fic already running with the assumption that it is, more or less, that Steve's response is in fact an accurate response to what was meant. (It may well have been what was needed, but that doesn't mean it's a response to what Tony was actually saying/thinking.) That line is a violent rejection of something much more than that, that I can't quite put into words, because I'm terrible at words. But yeah, that basic conflict between them and their approaches to superheroing isn't just about ego and teamwork and self-sacrifice. I think it might be about the idea of other people sacrificing themselves for you--which we know has happened to Steve, and surely not just with Bucky either, not when Steve was the leader of an actual military unit.
We know that Tony is more than willing to die to save everyone; what seems to push him over the edge in that scene is the idea that he's supposed to let people die for him. You can lose soldiers. That's something that happens to soldiers. Which is why he can't stand the idea of being one.
Fury seals Loki into the cell, showing him the button that will drop him 30,000 feet to the earth if he stares any more penises at anybody. It didn’t even occur to me that he’d be dropping the cell out of the vehicle completely. I just thought there was some kind of howling void spawned from the unholy union of science and dark sorcery inside the Helicarrier, because seriously: I LOVE THE HELICARRIER.
This also did not occur to me the first time! Except my problem was that I sort of...forgot they were flying? And I was like, "Did...did SHIELD drill a hole straight through the planet specifically for disposing of extra-dangerous threats? What am I asking, of course they did." I am not very smart while watching movies.
also, and unrelated except that I'm trying to reduce the spam--one of the moments that struck me this time was when Steve and Tony are talking about Coulson, and Tony's all "he was stupid!" and ends up yelling We are not soldiers!--and then there's a pause, and his voice and his whole bearing shift, and he says something about not marching to Fury's fife or whatever. And Steve is all, no, me neither, I don't trust him but we have to work together etc etc I forget. But the thing is--RDJ's delivery on that line, and the pause, and the different tone on the rest of the line makes me think that the first part, the "we are not soldiers" part that he yells, that's raw like barely any of his other lines, is not actually about not wanting to fall in line and follow marching orders of some guy he can't trust. It felt a lot more like a direct response to Steve's "is this the first time you've lost a soldier?"
Like what sets Tony off, the intense no reaction, isn't the idea of following someone else and subordinating his decisions to someone else--and the thing is, I've seen fic already running with the assumption that it is, more or less, that Steve's response is in fact an accurate response to what was meant. (It may well have been what was needed, but that doesn't mean it's a response to what Tony was actually saying/thinking.) That line is a violent rejection of something much more than that, that I can't quite put into words, because I'm terrible at words. But yeah, that basic conflict between them and their approaches to superheroing isn't just about ego and teamwork and self-sacrifice. I think it might be about the idea of other people sacrificing themselves for you--which we know has happened to Steve, and surely not just with Bucky either, not when Steve was the leader of an actual military unit.
We know that Tony is more than willing to die to save everyone; what seems to push him over the edge in that scene is the idea that he's supposed to let people die for him. You can lose soldiers. That's something that happens to soldiers. Which is why he can't stand the idea of being one.